Personally I think until we get to the point where we can load a page before someone finishes clicking the link to that page theres room to improve. There is nothing wrong using CSS and Tables. (Dont laugh, my skills probably saved my job.) WebW3Schools offers free online tutorials, references and exercises in all the major languages of the web. The problem most people have when learning to use divs is trying to force them to act like tables instead of allowing them to be what they are. And server space/bandwidth doesnt seem to be an issue anymore either. The third problem with tables is in how browsers render them. WebYou can have as many rows as you like in a table; just make sure that the number of cells are the same in each row. Ive been using divs for a decade now and never once had to guess where the content would be. In my opinion, combining table layout with CSS works great. What makes tables harder is that its too easy to get lost in the structure and edit the wrong cell. Theres really no reason in my opinion to use floats on a horizontal list when the goal is to have the list elements cooperate rather than be independent blocks whose widths are determined by content and padding. Why does it matter how divs are rendered as long as the document written with strong conventions and good semantics? This site is simple and fantastic, thanks for making it easy to read your content. Spanish is a beautiful language that many people use to communicate quickly and effectively each and every day. If youre not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, theres no reason to use tables for layout. Regarding Google using load times, does that mean that if your server is on a lower bandwidth connection, or on a slower server that Google will hold that against you, or do they have a way of disregarding those variables and just base it on how long each page would take to load if bandwidth, lag and server response were constant? There are many databases with different data formats to choose for an application. The limit isnt the language, its your current skill level in using the language. 1)Flexible?No.Tables are much more flexible due to fixed positions.Yes,fixed positions.You just have to set the positions and hey presto!Your site as you want it! 1) Inconsistent Browser Support Different browsers will render CSS layout differently as a result of browser bugs or lack of support for various CSS features. I am currently a consultant with an enormous company that forces us to support IE6. Global changes are easier: If youre using external styles, you make a change in one place and its automatically propagated to all the pages in the system. Your 2-column layout example could easily be accomplished with a .Net master page. Yet every few months someone else pops in here to tell me why Im clueless and to argue in favor of table-based layout. css vs tables WRONG! 1. My process doesnt involve spending hours resolving cross-browser compatibility issues by the way. It wasnt my intention. It permits online videos to be seen without using third-party plug-ins. The one that continues using tables is because it does not dominate or does not know CSS. Its pretty common to do when first learning css. I can bring myself to use tables, but css severly restricts my deisgns because of cross-browser compatibility. Web3. In other words you havent taken the time to learn how to layout a site with css. Theres simply less code to create a div than there is a table with a row and cell. By using our site, you Im surprised this debate continues, though admittedly Im continuing it right now after the question was raised on my small business forum. Its really about 5 -10 minutes work to set up. Believe me, Im not making the argument for convoluted nested tables with colspan settings, etc, nor am I arguing against semantically correct documents. Believe me, the clean code you talk about it gone. I also dont have an issue if you want to use them to display a list of links in a menu. Your email address will not be published. The similar change affects on all the browsers. With people employing a batch of various range of smart devices to access websites over the web, theres a requirement for responsive web design. 8.1 Introduction to Style Sheets . I agree with you about seo. Thats why theres more than one method in the post. Its true that the easiest way may not be the best way, but I dont yet see that the benefits of CSS outweigh the much greater learning curve with regards to these more complex layouts. Ill reserve judgment on maintenance but I have a hunch Ill be able to go in and make the same changes equally as quickly whether I start with the div or table test pages. Well, today a few colleagues of mine got freaked out when they saw me using a table to display data. I think much of the reason css vs tables is still debated is the misinformation people on both sides put out there. Chris your first comment seemed to indicate you preferred tables over css. Tables are not effective by themselves anymore I agree, it takes a lot of time updating thing manually, so CSS is a BIG help. Web Explain the advantages and disadvantage of using stylesheets; Use CSS to create web pages. Maybe I just havent searched the web enough. of CSS vs tables when it is clear that one can can use CSS techniques with respect to tables as well as divs? To me, framing the debate this way is yet another attempt to make a distinction Why does anyone really care how something is put together? Whats the deal? Its huge. Hopefully I can clear up a few things in this post and let you make your own decision. Granted, CSS loads faster and for big websites is easier to maintain for large websites, but after trying to convert the newindex1 page from tables to CSS, Im having a very hard time understanding why CSS is better for small websites. Once a again, thank you for the info! But I guess when all you have lying around is a hammer then every problem looks like a nail. Theyre interested in your content. Im not sure who angered you so much, but please dont take it out on me. It could be because of my familiarity with css, but I dont think the last method is hard to understand. When I first started using css for layout I couldnt always get things to look the same, but most of it was me. Read the post to find out why. Learning to write CSS layouts bucket be tricky, especially if you are usual with using tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. Im not going to stop you. I think your experience is similar to what most people whove made the transition from tables to css go through. You cant pluck a single cell out of a table and move it somewhere else in the layout. The phone number and search can either be wrapped together in another div thats floated to the right or they could each be floated to the right independently. Were not quite there yet with what wed like to do where design is concerned. I did say calling this css vs tables isnt really correct and that its really about tables and divs. IE gets some things wrong, but it gets a lot more things right. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Your email address will not be published. Web designers who take the time to learn css dont have the same problems youre seeing. Eventually it works, but at what cost? Thats actually where the hype is. The web developers need to test for compatibility, running the program across multiple browsers. Lastly Id like to say that I dont think problem is with tables or divs, but what html has to offer, there isnt really anything specific for that type of design, tables werent meant to be used for layout but data instead, there hasnt been anything until now with css3 and css3-grid positioning perhaps http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-grid/. CSS is a standard across the board. The issue though was how I was using css and not css itself. They make a lot of sense for displaying things like data. What happens if it goes 1 pixel beyond the the available size? biscotools.com. Its been years since I wrote more than a few lines of code specifically for any one browser and none of that code is a hack. Where layout is concerned though, I think the cons of using tables outweigh the pros and so favor using css. Most of the time though, that relationship wont be 1:1. WebMoreover, an externally linked CSS file, once loaded the first time, does not have to be reloaded and re-read on every page. By a few I mean less than 5. For some reason this is frowned upon as well. Its usually one or two things that may cause a problem and those problems are easily fixed. 1. Dont blame the language. No technique is designed to be used in isolation. Regardless the table div comparison above is not accurate. People can build sites without using a table-based layout now and still do. Tables and divs are the structure. I agree with what you are saying, however I think with the advancement of HTML 5, tables will start to disappear. Table cells cooperate very well with each other, the way everyone expects things works. Who cares, as long as it looks good on all the browsers and search engines are picking it up. I have an unorthodox, perhaps unstandardized approach to web design. Then I had to make changes to one site and thought there had to be a better way. Tables have proven themselves and Im going old school. As you mentioned, pages built in tables have to load twice (something I didnt know until reading this post) add to this that the example you showed: clearly illustrates how much extra code is required for tables. Sure you can say they just need to learn more, but sorry, they didnt. I have used some CSS to style the text, but not the design. In addition there are the little seemingly obscure css properties that need to be inserted to make certain things function properly in general, or with older browsers. Nothing in this post is meant to condemn people from using tables for site layout. However, know that the industry has moved on. Im not sure why people think it takes a lot of time to get things working cross browser. Thanks Craig. I have to disagree with this. Different levels of CSS can confuse users: Improve However, you can build a great site using tables and a poor site using css. External style sheets have some tremendous advantages: You can define the style sheet in one document and have all the HTML files refer to the CSS file. I really like your saying Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. Sometimes they write for things called tabloids, or articles of paragraphs arranged in tabular form. misinformation spreads on both sides of this debate, http://blog.hotdesign.com/2008/10/what-is-css/, http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/, http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css, http://www.vanseodesign.com/css/equal-height-columns/, Establishing Stability In 2021 After A Chaotic 2020, My Goals For 2020This Object In Motion Wants To Keep Moving, 2019 Goals ReviewAn Unexpected Change Of Plans Taught Me A Lot, Happy ThanksgivingWindow Displays, MOMA, and Central Park Images, ReviewThe Elements Of Logo Design: Design Thinking, Branding, and Making Marks. Maybe its because I learned with tables when I was getting started but Divs are complicated and they absolutely do require more code most of the time when you consider practically each object needs to be assigned an ID and go along with a class . These must all be on the same horizontal line to work, and if one has a word or two text change, only that column will flow properly, and I have to do lots of editing of the other columns. Again all I said was faster in this post and 10ms is still faster. With tables you know exactly where you are placing your content, exactly!!! The first thing we need to do is sort out the spacing/layout default table styling is so cramped! The times when floating blocks are more appropriate to use, besides its original intended use of having text wrap around images, is specifically when the blocks are meant to be independent from one another. Here are my questions. What the css vs tables debate is really about is whether or not to structure a web page with tables or divs. I think there are appropriate uses for tables, but I dont think the overall layout of a page is one of those appropriate uses. I dont think using css for a layout means the page automatically ranks better. I speak English fluently. I cant and wont tell you that you have to abandon tables. If I tired to reply to your comment in Spanish it would take me hours, even days, to put together a few coherent sentences. Thats it. And that, in my view, should be the only thing that qualifies you to comment on the number of passes the browser makes when rendering a page. When I first learned how to develop a website I learned to build them with tables like so many others. When I said forcing divs to act like tables I dont mean you cant arrange them in a way that looks something like a table. If you were to point one out to me Id either fix it or explain why it might not be working for you and probably even help you make it work. However there are other methods to abstract changes that need to be applied to more then one file into a single file. (801) 636-5158. How to Turn a Design Image Into a Working Web Page: Part 1, How to Turn a Design Image Into a Working Web Page: Part 2. Those arguments alone should be enough to tip the scales in the argument. I dont care what anybody says. Now that they have indicated that load times will be a ranking factor I would agree that divs make more sense. But clearly there are many people who support using tables. I dont want to use tables but Im finding it harder and harder to justify not using them. One instruction can control several areas which is advantageous. Style adjustment is more convenient. Heck, even IE8 does a decent job of rendering CSS layouts. Thats not the case. WYSIWYG editors seem a lot better to me today than they were 10 years ago. Then you can use divs inside your table. This argument usually includes the time taken to learn to use divs, which isnt a fair comparison. The advantages with using divs are essentially counter to the problems with tables described above. And I never use some software package to do it for me unless I wrote that package myself. by using percentages, so the design is more responsive. The conclusion isnt that it takes a long time to communicate in Spanish. All the pro-css designers Ive ever worked with have tended to be full of shit, constantly creating new display bugs in production. You cant break out of the rigid grid easily. Its the kind of thing that might move you from #8 to #7, but not from page 5 to the first page. CSS changes are device friendly. http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css. Im not questioning the benefits of CSS in general. any pretty crap i use css on those parts alone. Required fields are marked *. I dont know about you, but generally speaking what my clients want most often is to update the content. CSS or cascading sheet may be a text-based coding language that specifies the website formats and the way a site communicates with web browsers. And Id suggest its still debatable that tables do equal columns better. Again DreamWeaver is taking care of this for you. It separates style from content (editable/un-editable). Which is why Im not one to generally make that argument. Right or wrong, I LOVE spending most of my time designing. That flow is what needs to be eliminated! I really resented (and it sounds like many of you do too) all the time I had to spend to get a site to look as it was intended for ALL users. That extra pass at the code makes table-based layouts take longer to display. Creativity User preferences Multiple variants Personalized user experience Artificial intelligence design disadvantages Understand nuances Create original content Filter biases 3 best artificial intelligence design software UIzard LetsEnhance Fronty Conclusion Also anytime you come across a site with a layout you like copy the source code and when you have time study it to see if you can understand how they did what they did. 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